Talk:Non-binary gender
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Non-binary gender article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9Auto-archiving period: 92 days |
Agender was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 18 November 2014 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Non-binary gender. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||
|
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
The contents of the Neutrois page were merged into Non-binary gender on 26 November 2014. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
|
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened: |
Criticism
[edit]Please revert section of criticism. And punish DanielRigal for deleting scientific criticism. Firstly, it is not some "guy". Secondly, what is the argument that this is a single critical voice? Based on what Wikipedia rules did DanielRigal think up that one is not enough? Please revert and punish the vandal. Pawel.jamiolkowski (talk) 00:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- The revert of your edit is standard at Wikipedia. First, see WP:CRIT. Second, the views of a particular person belong in an article on that person, such as at Kadji Amin. If there is no such article, and if WP:SECONDARY sources have not highlighted the views, they should be removed per WP:UNDUE. Johnuniq (talk) 00:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I read. So please explain, why some articles have Criticism section, for example Islam#Criticism ? Why can Islam be criticized, but non-binary gender cannot? Hypocrisy? Pawel.jamiolkowski (talk) 12:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you are here to criticise an article subject then you do not understand how to edit an encyclopaedia. When we cover a topic we cover all notable aspects of it, including notable criticisms of it. We cover criticism but we do not not ourselves criticise. That's WP:NPOV. There is not a topic on this earth that doesn't have at least a few haters. I'm sure that if you looked hard enough you could find a few non-notable people who hate watercress, walruses and wheelbarrows but it would not be appropriate to cover their non-notable opinions in the articles on those subjects. DanielRigal (talk) 18:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Great, now please answer why one can criticise Islam and cannot non-binarity. So far, I have not received an answer to this. Pawel.jamiolkowski (talk) 19:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you are here to criticise an article subject then you do not understand how to edit an encyclopaedia. When we cover a topic we cover all notable aspects of it, including notable criticisms of it. We cover criticism but we do not not ourselves criticise. That's WP:NPOV. There is not a topic on this earth that doesn't have at least a few haters. I'm sure that if you looked hard enough you could find a few non-notable people who hate watercress, walruses and wheelbarrows but it would not be appropriate to cover their non-notable opinions in the articles on those subjects. DanielRigal (talk) 18:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I read. So please explain, why some articles have Criticism section, for example Islam#Criticism ? Why can Islam be criticized, but non-binary gender cannot? Hypocrisy? Pawel.jamiolkowski (talk) 12:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- We have talked about the inclusion of a criticism section years ago. What exactly is there to criticize?CycoMa1 (talk) 18:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Here's a link to the most recent discussion of a criticism section that I can find in the archives. Funcrunch (talk) 19:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- But that discussion is out of date because it is claimed that there is no scientific literature questioning non-binary. I just provided such literature from 2022. And this is not the only criticism and more and more will appear. There's not much to it, because "non-binary" is a new creation. Pawel.jamiolkowski (talk) 20:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Here's a link to the most recent discussion of a criticism section that I can find in the archives. Funcrunch (talk) 19:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- I want to pipe in and say that an editor with the same name as the OP added a section on rationalwiki identical to the one reverted. Ioe bidome (talk) 19:39, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Adding a criticism section to an article about non-binary gender makes about as much sense as adding a criticism section to articles like "African-American" or "man"
- The "criticism" was just the opinions of one guy.
- Islam and non-binary are not comparable. One is a gender identity while the other is a religion that has been used to justify homophobia and transphobia. Ioe bidome (talk) 13:22, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I thought you're a vandal on "RationalWiki", but now I see you're really funny. Funny guy. Pawel.jamiolkowski (talk) 15:49, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
The framing of it as a "criticism" section and overall approach promoting it above are clearly non-starters, but for future reference, the source is this academic article, readable in full, here. Generally, we have treated these sorts of articles in the humanities as WP:PRIMARY sources equivalent to single studies in science, with little or no weight on topics like this where secondary sources should exist. I haven't read it, but the source is clearly taking a queer theory perspective and probably isn't an attack on non-binary people in particular, but a questioning of our culture's way of categorizing gender overall. Of course, numerous opinions along those general lines exist. Crossroads -talk- 16:19, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Xenogender flag?
[edit]So Xenogender redirects to Non-binary_gender#Xenogender. What do others think of adding Xenogender flag (
) to Non-binary gender#Symbols and observances? EarthFurst (talk) 20:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- It would need reliable secondary sources indicating that the community meaningfully uses this flag. Crossroads -talk- 22:14, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Jens Andersson
[edit]Article mentions Jens Andersson as a historical example for non-binary gender. Please see the two sections of sources below, Andersson was in a same sex relationship during a time when this was an illegal act, and was imprisoned for such. Prescribing a gender identity post mortem is not scholarly work, and this is also mentioned in the first highlighted source.
Recommending that this example be removed.
Sources:
https://skeivtarkiv.no/en/skeivopedia/sodomy-between-women#:~:text=Another%20case%20which,court.%20(Stoa%202010). 76.184.170.169 (talk) 06:44, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Creating a "Media representation" section?
[edit]Instead of jumping ahead and creating this section, I thought I'd post here first. Other identities have robust sections of this type, like Lesbian#Media representation, Bisexuality#Media, Asexuality#In media, and Intersex#In society. I was thinking of moving SOME content from Non-binary characters in fiction to such a section. I can come up with a mock version of this possible section if you think that would help. Otherwise, I am trying to pair down Non-binary characters in fiction a bit (focusing mainly on examples either with media coverage or scholarly analysis), so if you would like to help with that, it would be appreciated. Historyday01 (talk) 15:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- It would be best to base such a section on scholarly analysis if so. Some of that material, like at Bisexuality, just lists off certain media and cites contemporary entertainment news, which isn't as good. Crossroads -talk- 17:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- I can agree with that, that makes perfect sense. Historyday01 (talk) 19:07, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
this is going to sound really stupid but at the very start of the article where it talks about gender and sexuality being separate, there's a colon and there should be a semicolon instead but i don't have a wikipedia account and it's 2am
- C-Class vital articles
- Wikipedia level-5 vital articles
- Wikipedia vital articles in Everyday life
- C-Class level-5 vital articles
- Wikipedia level-5 vital articles in Everyday life
- C-Class vital articles in Everyday life
- C-Class Gender studies articles
- Mid-importance Gender studies articles
- WikiProject Gender studies articles
- C-Class LGBT articles
- WikiProject LGBT studies articles
- Articles created or improved during Wiki Loves Pride 2015
- Articles created or improved during Wiki Loves Pride 2016
- Articles created or improved during Wiki Loves Pride 2017
- Pages in the Wikipedia Top 25 Report